Training frequency

[Black Knight]

Are any of you guys familiar with Pavel Tsatsouline's articles on "Greasing the Groove" and similar?
Basically he recommends training on the big compounds with heavy, though sub-maximal, weights with greater frequency. i.e 2-4 times per week rather than 1 time per week. Its something to do with 'synaptic facilitation'. I think that means that your body responds to the stimulus of the high frequency training by improving the neurotransmitters in the CNS?
Anyway, its interesting stuff and its helped me to resolve the problems I had with understanding how Oly lifters can perform such high intensity workouts up to 12 times per week. Yes, I know they take drugs but so do the top powerlifters who might only perform the big compounds a couple of times per week.
Pavel recommends sticking to the likes of C+J, Snatch, Deadlift, Bench and Squat with little or no assistance work and not going to failure.
Seems very interesting and I guess its like many of us trained (whole body 3 times per week) when we first started.
Since I'm returning to training tomorrow with very light weights after a 2 week lay-off I'm going to follow this while I break myself back in gently. Who knows, it might be very productive?

[Mike]

Are any of you guys familiar with Pavel Tsatsouline's articles on "Greasing the Groove" and similar?
Basically he recommends training on the big compounds with heavy, though sub-maximal, weights with greater frequency. i.e 2-4 times per week rather than 1 time per week. Its something to do with 'synaptic facilitation'. I think that means that your body responds to the stimulus of the high frequency training by improving the neurotransmitters in the CNS?
Anyway, its interesting stuff and its helped me to resolve the problems I had with understanding how Oly lifters can perform such high intensity workouts up to 12 times per week. Yes, I know they take drugs but so do the top powerlifters who might only perform the big compounds a couple of times per week.
Pavel recommends sticking to the likes of C+J, Snatch, Deadlift, Bench and Squat with little or no assistance work and not going to failure.
Seems very interesting and I guess its like many of us trained (whole body 3 times per week) when we first started.
Since I'm returning to training tomorrow with very light weights after a 2 week lay-off I'm going to follow this while I break myself back in gently. Who knows, it might be very productive?

It's nothing new. Squatting 3x a week is possible (ask Rob). When will you max out? I avoid failure but can only train 3x a week due to intensity. Avoiding failure doesnt mean you can train as often as you like.

[Black Knight]

I never claimed it was new. However, reading it made me appreciate the rationale of the Oly lifting regimes. Many regard the Oly lifters to be far and away the most advanced 'weight lifters'.
I think its easy to be seduced by the one body part per week routines which dominate many forums.
Whilst not 'new', its refreshing to consider alternative approaches to what is a very inexact science.

[help]

but consider the difference between an oly move and a PLing move

it also depends on the training methology (bulgarian, cuban etc)

[Black Knight]

but consider the difference between an oly move and a PLing move

it also depends on the training methology (bulgarian, cuban etc)

Technique differences aside, surely the common factor is the toll on the CNS?
From what Ive read the very successful bulgarian coaches basically rely on C+J, Snatch, Power Clean, Power Snatch, Front Squat and Back Squat. Combinations thereof upto 12 times per week, working well over 80% most of the time. How come they are not fried? (no sarcasm, I'm genuinely amazed at what these guys and gals can do!)

[BengDogg]

I think the oly lifters at that level certainly have every advantage at hand, such as sports massage near perfect diets and nutrition etc, but it is still certainly impressive, I think the Chinese weight lifters also follow incredibly demanding routines iir

[DMPM]

I never claimed it was new. However, reading it made me appreciate the rationale of the Oly lifting regimes. Many regard the Oly lifters to be far and away the most advanced 'weight lifters'.
I think its easy to be seduced by the one body part per week routines which dominate many forums.
Whilst not 'new', its refreshing to consider alternative approaches to what is a very inexact science.
But Oly lifts don't have an eccentric portion, hence they can recover lots quicker. And I guess all the top Oly lifters are both juicing and have great genetics.

No way on Earth could I squat or deadlift decent weights 3 times a week. I'd die.

Ask Scourge about his time on Smolov...

[Black Knight]

But Oly lifts don't have an eccentric portion, hence they can recover lots quicker. And I guess all the top Oly lifters are both juicing and have great genetics.

No way on Earth could I squat or deadlift decent weights 3 times a week. I'd die.

Ask Scourge about his time on Smolov...

Yeah I know what you mean, mate. However, the more I read about it the more it confuses. Art Drechsler in his 'Encyclopedia of weightlifting' claims that the classic Oly lifts exact a greater fatigue than anything else. He describes how prior to competition he often reduced his oly lifting but kept squatting frequently to maintain strength and condition. That doesnt mean hes maxing, but still in the region of 85%+!

[help]

bulgaria is a weightlifting country

for every 1 successful lifter (ie european level) there will probably be 50 non successful lifters. The others will be "fried"

They start at a young age (10ish) and are specifically conditioned for oly lifting

they follow tough training routines AND vigourous recovery and lifestyle programs that we could not recreate

the last point is the most important one

[Black Knight]

bulgaria is a weightlifting country

for every 1 successful lifter (ie european level) there will probably be 50 non successful lifters. The others will be "fried"

They start at a young age (10ish) and are specifically conditioned for oly lifting

they follow tough training routines AND vigourous recovery and lifestyle programs that we could not recreate

the last point is the most important one

Good point, Help. That makes sense, however................
I'm still interested in this idea of 'Greasing the Groove'. I've often thought that performing a lift once per week isn't enough to become 'good' at it. Particularly somebody like me who has poor technique.
I'm not sure that a once per week v.heavy session is the right way for everyone.
I guess its a case of manipulating volume, frequency and intensity to suit the individual.
When we talk about limiting muscle group training to 1 per week that seems to assume that we've worked ourselves into the ground and are incapable of training again. There must be a middle ground whereby a training stimulus has been achieved without traumatising the cns so much that it takes 7 days to recover?
I think my problem is that I was encouraged to train to failure all the time when I first picked up a weight and psychologically I feel like I've had a poor workout if I dont. Silly!
I'm going to play around with this idea whilst sticking to the basics of Squat, Dead, Bench, MP, Chins.

[Robert]

Maybe you could try:

1.
Medium squat (up to 80-85%)
Heavy DL (95%+)
+assist (RDL/GM/GHR etc)

2.
Bench/whatever

3.
Heavy squat (95%+)
Medium DL (80-85%)
+assist (RDL/GM/GHR etc)

Keeping the volume pretty low on each exercise (exc bench). Say working in 3's and 5's for the medium work, and 2's and 1's for your heavy stuff.

[help]

or maybe westside is an option

[Black Knight]

I'm cosidering all possibilites gents. In the short-term I just need to do some training!
I'm going to start very light and do a whole body routine (shock horror, revolutionary stuff!)

[the block]

whole body routines are great

[Scourge]

But Oly lifts don't have an eccentric portion, hence they can recover lots quicker. And I guess all the top Oly lifters are both juicing and have great genetics.

No way on Earth could I squat or deadlift decent weights 3 times a week. I'd die.

Ask Scourge about his time on Smolov...
Yeah... Oly lifts don't have an eccentric portion, so muscular microtrauma (damage) is much less of a problem. Also, I believe that oly lifters tend to use a lower % of their 1RM than p'lifters on average (oly lifters' training focusing more on speed strength than p'lifting). Also remember that your body can adapt to higher tonnages over time - You might not be able to squat three times a week now, but if you've spent your lifting career squatting once a week, that's to be expected. A lot of the ex-Communist lifters have spent their entire lives building up their ability to tolerate higher workloads, hence training 12 times a week isn't, for them, the deranged task it looks like to us lesser mortals.

It's funny you should mention Smolov because it's relevant in a number of ways.

1) Firstly, I injured myself very quickly because I simply tried to up the tonnage I was moving far too quickly. Even in the run up to Smolov, I was more worried about my GPP affecting me with the high-rep sets, than the actual amount of squatting I would be doing. I was only squatting twice a week in preparation for it, which probably turned out to be my undoing.

2) Secondly, the Smolov routine works on the principle that you can increase your body's tolerance for volume - If you look at the routine and do the maths, you'll see that the Base Mesocycle has a wave-patterned tonnage overload (not sure if my terminology is correct here, but I know what I mean). The idea of this is not so much to help improve your strength (there's a lot of high-rep squatting in there), but to prepare you for the intensity of the cunningly descriptive Intense Mesocycle, which is where the emphasis shifts much more to high weights and lower reps.

3) Finally, I believe the Smolov cycle was invented for oly lifters, rather than p'lifters. As such, the intention was that you'd be doing oly squats rather than power squats, which would reduce the amount of weight you would be using (another factor which helps oly lifters support a higher volume of squatting than p'lifters and which makes the whole routine look marginally less insane).