routine - again

[the block]

have done 2 weeks of 8 rep stuff = 4 sessions in the gym. through worst of the doms etc...

would like a routine that addresses strength-endurance & maximal strength.

any suggestions?

[Man of Steel]

Why do you want to develop strength endurance?

[the block]

because i have very poor endurance. have trained consistently with low reps for a while and anything over 6 reps is a flippin killer. in my everyday living i dont get to use maximal strength as often. its usually manageable weights but for time, e.g. carrying something heavy from one place to another. lactic acid builds up very quickly and my tolerance for it is pathetic.

[Man of Steel]

How about a two day whole body routine with a heavy lower/light upper body day and a heavy upper/light lower body day doing doubles or triples on the squat or deadlift and OHP or bench with a third day being higher rep strongman type exercises. Do some strongman exercises that are similar to the kind of lifting you do in real life.

[666]

Sounds like a fun regime to me actually.

[Knighty]

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=EC8B4E2F1C5F97F4BB3EF009 7B1D464C.titan?article=04-073-training

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=EC8B4E2F1C5F97F4BB3EF009 7B1D464C.titan?article=311west2

[Scourge]

Repitition Effort work?

[Robert]

If you want maximal strength, then train for it. If you want lactate tolerance, then GPP and recovery workouts will help. Combine the two, and you have WSB or similar.

[the block]

cheers all.

have decided to do the following :

DAY 1
Back & Triceps
PB Zone 1, 15 mins
A, Rack Pull - 5 reps
B, Close Grip Bench - 8 reps

PB Zone 2, 15 mins
A, Pull up wide grip - 8 reps
B, Skullcrushers - 8 reps

PB Zone 3, 15 mins
A, T-bar Row - 8reps
B, Pushdowns - 8 reps



DAY 2
Legs
PB Zone 1, 15 mins
Squats - 5 reps
no second exercise

PB Zone 2, 15 mins
A, Left leg lunge - 8 reps
B, Right leg lunge - 8 reps

PB Zone 3, 15 mins
A, SLDL - 8 reps
B, Hanging Leg Raises - 12 reps



DAY 3
Chest & Biceps
PB Zone 1, 15 mins
A, BB Bench Press - 5 reps
B, Barbell Curls - 8 reps

PB Zone 2, 15 mins
A, Barbell Shoulder Press - 8 reps
B, Hammer Curls - 8 reps

PB Zone 3, 15 mins
A, Incline dumbbell press - 8 reps
B, Reverse Curls - 8 reps


PK suggested it to me a few months ago and i really enjoyed it and it combines what i'm after. i've tweaked it v.slightly.

opinions?

[Scourge]

I don't like it, although that's probably because I don't understand it. It's wierd and confusing.

If you're looking to improve your strength endurance and 1RM, I'd probably be looking at Westside, if only because it's simple, it's well-known and it's proven.

ME lifts for maximal strength training, DE lifts for speed training and RE on all your assistance work for strength endurance. Sorted.

[the block]

I don't like it, although that's probably because I don't understand it. It's wierd and confusing.

lol! thats what i thought when i first saw it. its easy enough. you have 15mins to do as many sets of the exercises coupled together and you do 6 exercises a day.

If you're looking to improve your strength endurance and 1RM, I'd probably be looking at Westside, if only because it's simple, it's well-known and it's proven.

ME lifts for maximal strength training, DE lifts for speed training and RE on all your assistance work for strength endurance. Sorted.

i agree. but the problem i have is i'm not very creative and have a hard time coming up with a routine thats different from the standard 6x3/8x3. but i'll have a go and then you can poke holes in it and improve it as i have to learn.

[the block]

have had a look at the westside for skinny bastards ( here: http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=EC8B4E2F1C5F97F4BB3EF009 7B1D464C.titan?article=311west2 cheers knighty)
but its only for 3 days. i have sort of frankensteined/nearly copied the routine below and it was a bloody pain in the arse putting it together. well i hope i have done something right:



Day 1 - Max Effort (ME) Squat
Squat. warm up and do triples until no more are possible. then switch to singles. upto 4 finishing between 90% - 100% 1RM.
SLDL - 3 x 8 reps
Hanging Leg Raises - 4 x 12
Wide grip chins/Barbell row - 3 x 8


Day 2- Max Effort (ME) Bench Press
Bench Press. warm up and do triples until no more are possible. then switch to singles. upto 4 finishing between 90% - 100% 1RM.
Tricep extensions 3 x8
Cable pushdowns 3 x 8
Front raises - 3 x 10
Wide grip chins - 3 x 8
Barbell curls - 3 x 8

Day 3- Dynamic Effort (DE) Squat
Box squat 8-12 doubles with 45-65% of 1RM
Regular hyperextensions 3 x 8
Side bends - 3 x 8
Neck work - will have to improvise

Day 4- Dynamic Effort (DE) Bench press
Speed bench 8-10 triples with 45-60% of 1 RM
Close grip bench 3 x 8
Pushdowns - 3 x 8
Front raises 3 x 8
Wide grip chins 3 x 8
Barbell curls 3 x 8

i used/abused the following links to help me:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/bobyoungs-sampleworkout.htm

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/article-westside-barbell.asp

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/meeting-the-iron.htm

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=EC8B4E2F1C5F97F4BB3EF009 7B1D464C.titan?article=311west2

opinions? mine is that it has a lotta lotta volume and that there is a bias towards the upper body and benching.

[Knighty]

you can do a repetition lower body day instead of gpp, making it 4 sessions

http://defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_04-05-15.htm#question02

": Joe,
I just got done reading your Westside for Skinny Bastards article on www.t-mag.com (http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/311west.jsp). I must say that it was the best article I’ve ever read on that site and I’ve been following T-Mag since issue #1! I literally couldn’t sleep last night because I was so excited to get to the gym this morning! Now I have 3 questions:

What kind of rest intervals do you prescribe for max effort lifts?
How many reps are you shooting for on your upper body repetition lift?
I would like to incorporate a 2nd lower body day but I don’t have a sled. Can you give a sample “repetition” leg day for me? Although I’m not huge (yet) I will be able to recover from 2 leg days as I have recently begun my first cycle.
Thanks bro! Keep turning your boyz into animals!!!
Rock

A: Rock,
It’s great to see how fired up everyone is about the Modified Westside Program. The responses that I have received regarding my recent article have been overwhelming! I think there’s going to be a lot of big & strong individuals walking around this summer.

Anyway, let’s move onto your questions:


There is no set rest interval for the max effort lift. Generally speaking, my lifting partners and I just go back and forth through the warm-up sets. There is probably between 60 & 90 seconds between warm-up sets. When it comes time for the grand finale, we slow down the pace a little. Personally, I’m stronger if I wait between 3-4 minutes between maximal attempts. Remember, the purpose of max effort day is to lift the most amount of weight possible. If this means taking a longer rest, take your time! You can pick up the pace when you move on to the supplemental lifts.


On your repetition upper body lift you will choose a weight that you can perform approximately 20-35 reps with on your first set. Stick with the same weight for all 3 sets. Record the total number of reps that you performed for all 3 sets. The goal is to perform more reps with the same weight the following week.


Here’s a sample Repetition Lower Body template:


NOTE: Choose exercises from the list that you DIDN’T perform on your 1st lower body day.

A. Unilateral Movement - Perform 3 sets of 15 reps each leg
*Choose from the following list of exercises:
Single leg squats, back leg elevated
Barbell step-ups with knee lift
Barbell reverse lunges
Barbell reverse lunges, front foot elevated
Barbell reverse lunges, front foot elevated (with knee lift)
Low-pulley split squats, front foot elevated
Walking lunges
“Speed-skater” squats (1 and a half rep single leg squats)
Barbell step-ups

B. Posterior Chain / Hamstring movement – Perform 3-4 sets of 10-15 reps for TWO of the following exercises:
Glute-ham raises
Reverse hyperextensions
Seated or standing good mornings
Pull-throughs
Leg curls
Romanian deadlifts
Stability ball hamstring lifts

C. Weak Point Training – Perform 1 exercise for 3-5 sets of a lagging body part
(Common areas include – upper back, external rotators, abs, grip training, etc.)
Joe D."

(http://defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_04-05-15.htm#question02http://defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_04-05-15.htm#question02v)

[666]

Neck work - will have to improvise.

Bridging?

[Scourge]

Day 1 - Max Effort (ME) Squat
Squat. warm up and do triples until no more are possible. then switch to singles. upto 4 finishing between 90% - 100% 1RM.
SLDL - 3 x 8 reps
Hanging Leg Raises - 4 x 12
Wide grip chins/Barbell row - 3 x 8

Day 2- Max Effort (ME) Bench Press
Bench Press. warm up and do triples until no more are possible. then switch to singles. upto 4 finishing between 90% - 100% 1RM.
Tricep extensions 3 x8
Cable pushdowns 3 x 8
Front raises - 3 x 10
Wide grip chins - 3 x 8
Barbell curls - 3 x 8

Day 3- Dynamic Effort (DE) Squat
Box squat 8-12 doubles with 45-65% of 1RM
Regular hyperextensions 3 x 8
Side bends - 3 x 8
Neck work - will have to improvise

Day 4- Dynamic Effort (DE) Bench press
Speed bench 8-10 triples with 45-60% of 1 RM
Close grip bench 3 x 8
Pushdowns - 3 x 8
Front raises 3 x 8
Wide grip chins 3 x 8
Barbell curls 3 x 8

Ummm... Not a bad routine, but I think you've kinda missed my point, esp. with the RE stuff.

Monday
Big compound lower-body lift (ME)
2 assistance exercises (RE)
Trunk work (probably ab or core work)

Wednesday
Big compound upper-body lift (ME)
2-3 assistance exercises (RE)

Friday
Big compound lower-body lift (DE)
2 assistance exercises (RE)
Trunk work (probably ab or core work)

Saturday
Big compound upper-body lift (DE)
2-3 assistance exercises (RE)

N.B:
1) ME - Maximum effort. Work up to an absolute 1RM, 2RM or 3RM. This is supposed to be maximum with 'maximum' being the operative. Don't do 3-4 heavy sets with (x) reps. Work up to an (x)RM.

2) RE - Repetition effort. Pick a weight you thing you can lift for 3x6* on your chosen exercise. Bang out as many reps as you can** for three sets. For subsequent workouts, keep the weight the same, but try to increase the number of reps per set you can do. Once you can do 3x10*, increase the weight you're using so that you're back down to 3x6* and repeat the process.

*These ranges are just examples. There's no reason not to choose another rep range.

**Although this is 'repetition effort', RE exercises should not be done to failure but to (failure -1) or (failure -2). Your final rep should not be balls-to-the-wall, all-out effort, although it should be tough and it should hurt. You should be 100% certain you'll get your final rep on any set of any RE lift.

3) DE - Dynamic effort. The plan is moving the bar as quickly as possible. Normal rep-set ranges are 2-5 reps for 4-10 sets. 6x3 should be fine. Although the Westside guys normally recommend that you use 45%-55% 1RM, for these lifts, I would recommend you go higher. The guys who train at Westside are a lot stronger than you or I and their more optimised CNS calls for lower weights to be used for DE work.

I was using 5x5x70% 1RM for DE work a while ago (although not as part of a Westside routine) and found I got stronger a lot quicker than when I was using lower weights. I'd recommend using 60%-75% 1RM for DE work. Start at 60% or so and work up if you feel more weight would be useful.

4) Ab and/or core work shouldn't be done with RE. Pick a rep-set scheme and stick to it.

5) Your chosen assistance exercise seem very isolation-ey. I'd try to bring a more compound feel to it i.e. JM presses instead of tricep extensions, GMs instead of hyperextensions etc, cheat curls instead of strict curls, floor press instead of front raises. IMO the volume of iso-exercises the Westside guys use isn't ideal for natural lifters, although that's not to say you shouldn't use any isolation work.

6) Wide-grip chins aren't great for your shoulders. Better to do barbell rows.

7) If you're going to use accommodating resistance, take it easy to start with, especially with the bands. Accommodating resistance will increase your recovery times and heavy use of bands adds a wicked negative to the lift.

I think that's all. Not sure what Dave Tate would have to say about it, but I think that'll work just fine for you.

[Robert]

In additon to what Ian says about wide grip chins, I would say forget that on a squat day. I am rapidly forming the opinionthat a big back = a big bench. I can't bench for shit when I have lat/trap DOMS. So I wouldn't advise back work the day before ME bench. Other than that, what Ian said.

[the block]

you can do a repetition lower body day instead of gpp, making it 4 sessions

http://defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_04-05-15.htm#question02

": Joe,
I just got done reading your Westside for Skinny Bastards article on www.t-mag.com (http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/311west.jsp). I must say that it was the best article I’ve ever read on that site and I’ve been following T-Mag since issue #1! I literally couldn’t sleep last night because I was so excited to get to the gym this morning! Now I have 3 questions:

What kind of rest intervals do you prescribe for max effort lifts?
How many reps are you shooting for on your upper body repetition lift?
I would like to incorporate a 2nd lower body day but I don’t have a sled. Can you give a sample “repetition” leg day for me? Although I’m not huge (yet) I will be able to recover from 2 leg days as I have recently begun my first cycle.
Thanks bro! Keep turning your boyz into animals!!!
Rock

A: Rock,
It’s great to see how fired up everyone is about the Modified Westside Program. The responses that I have received regarding my recent article have been overwhelming! I think there’s going to be a lot of big & strong individuals walking around this summer.

Anyway, let’s move onto your questions:


There is no set rest interval for the max effort lift. Generally speaking, my lifting partners and I just go back and forth through the warm-up sets. There is probably between 60 & 90 seconds between warm-up sets. When it comes time for the grand finale, we slow down the pace a little. Personally, I’m stronger if I wait between 3-4 minutes between maximal attempts. Remember, the purpose of max effort day is to lift the most amount of weight possible. If this means taking a longer rest, take your time! You can pick up the pace when you move on to the supplemental lifts.


On your repetition upper body lift you will choose a weight that you can perform approximately 20-35 reps with on your first set. Stick with the same weight for all 3 sets. Record the total number of reps that you performed for all 3 sets. The goal is to perform more reps with the same weight the following week.


Here’s a sample Repetition Lower Body template:


NOTE: Choose exercises from the list that you DIDN’T perform on your 1st lower body day.

A. Unilateral Movement - Perform 3 sets of 15 reps each leg
*Choose from the following list of exercises:
Single leg squats, back leg elevated
Barbell step-ups with knee lift
Barbell reverse lunges
Barbell reverse lunges, front foot elevated
Barbell reverse lunges, front foot elevated (with knee lift)
Low-pulley split squats, front foot elevated
Walking lunges
“Speed-skater” squats (1 and a half rep single leg squats)
Barbell step-ups

B. Posterior Chain / Hamstring movement – Perform 3-4 sets of 10-15 reps for TWO of the following exercises:
Glute-ham raises
Reverse hyperextensions
Seated or standing good mornings
Pull-throughs
Leg curls
Romanian deadlifts
Stability ball hamstring lifts

C. Weak Point Training – Perform 1 exercise for 3-5 sets of a lagging body part
(Common areas include – upper back, external rotators, abs, grip training, etc.)
Joe D."

(http://defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_04-05-15.htm#question02http://defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_04-05-15.htm#question02v)



cheerr knighty - i didnt see that bit. am a bit put off with the unilateral work purely as its new to me and i'm a wuss :D
many thanks for digging that out

[the block]

Bridging?


or a neck harness or towel round the head pull thing. or my mate pushing my neck and me resisting was what i was thinking.

[the block]

Ummm... Not a bad routine, but I think you've kinda missed my point, esp. with the RE stuff.

Monday
Big compound lower-body lift (ME)
2 assistance exercises (RE)
Trunk work (probably ab or core work)

Wednesday
Big compound upper-body lift (ME)
2-3 assistance exercises (RE)

Friday
Big compound lower-body lift (DE)
2 assistance exercises (RE)
Trunk work (probably ab or core work)

Saturday
Big compound upper-body lift (DE)
2-3 assistance exercises (RE)

N.B:
1) ME - Maximum effort. Work up to an absolute 1RM, 2RM or 3RM. This is supposed to be maximum with 'maximum' being the operative. Don't do 3-4 heavy sets with (x) reps. Work up to an (x)RM.

2) RE - Repetition effort. Pick a weight you thing you can lift for 3x6* on your chosen exercise. Bang out as many reps as you can** for three sets. For subsequent workouts, keep the weight the same, but try to increase the number of reps per set you can do. Once you can do 3x10*, increase the weight you're using so that you're back down to 3x6* and repeat the process.

*These ranges are just examples. There's no reason not to choose another rep range.

**Although this is 'repetition effort', RE exercises should not be done to failure but to (failure -1) or (failure -2). Your final rep should not be balls-to-the-wall, all-out effort, although it should be tough and it should hurt. You should be 100% certain you'll get your final rep on any set of any RE lift.

3) DE - Dynamic effort. The plan is moving the bar as quickly as possible. Normal rep-set ranges are 2-5 reps for 4-10 sets. 6x3 should be fine. Although the Westside guys normally recommend that you use 45%-55% 1RM, for these lifts, I would recommend you go higher. The guys who train at Westside are a lot stronger than you or I and their more optimised CNS calls for lower weights to be used for DE work.

I was using 5x5x70% 1RM for DE work a while ago (although not as part of a Westside routine) and found I got stronger a lot quicker than when I was using lower weights. I'd recommend using 60%-75% 1RM for DE work. Start at 60% or so and work up if you feel more weight would be useful.

4) Ab and/or core work shouldn't be done with RE. Pick a rep-set scheme and stick to it.

5) Your chosen assistance exercise seem very isolation-ey. I'd try to bring a more compound feel to it i.e. JM presses instead of tricep extensions, GMs instead of hyperextensions etc, cheat curls instead of strict curls, floor press instead of front raises. IMO the volume of iso-exercises the Westside guys use isn't ideal for natural lifters, although that's not to say you shouldn't use any isolation work.

6) Wide-grip chins aren't great for your shoulders. Better to do barbell rows.

7) If you're going to use accommodating resistance, take it easy to start with, especially with the bands. Accommodating resistance will increase your recovery times and heavy use of bands adds a wicked negative to the lift.

I think that's all. Not sure what Dave Tate would have to say about it, but I think that'll work just fine for you.

thank you very much for typing all that out. :023:

[the block]

Lower Body ME
Parallel Squat - ME
Good Morning - RE
SLDL - RE
Hanging Leg Raises

Upper Body ME
Bench - ME
Incline DB Bench - RE
Barbell Row - RE
Dips (or Pushdowns if shoulder doesnt like them) - RE

Lower Body DE
Full Squat - DE
Rack Pulls - RE
Pull Throughs - RE (will have to learn these)
Trunk work - havent picked an exercise yet

Upper Body DE
Bench - DE
BB Military Press - RE
T-Bar Row - RE
Close Grip Bench - RE


hows that? (cringes)

[Robert]

Lower Body ME
Parallel Squat - ME
Good Morning - RE No. Not needed at this stage. Just keep the squatting volume very high.
SLDL - RE
Hanging Leg Raises

Upper Body ME
Bench - ME
Incline DB Bench - RE
Barbell Row - RE
Dips (or Pushdowns if shoulder doesnt like them) - RE

Lower Body DE
Full Squat - DE Do this off a box from below paralel.
Rack Pulls - RE No no no. DE full deadlifts would be better.
Pull Throughs - RE (will have to learn these)
Trunk work - havent picked an exercise yet Definitely 1/4 squats.

Upper Body DE
Bench - DE
BB Military Press - RE
T-Bar Row - RE
Close Grip Bench - RE


hows that? (cringes)
Lastly, make your DE singles or doubles and use 60%+. I found it hard to get into a groove doing triples with 50%ish. When you first start your 3rd rep is dreadfully slow compared with the first and even 2nd. Keep the volume high by doing more sets. 10x2, or 15x1 for example.

[the block]

cool. :)

gonna throw in an exercise for biceps on both lower body days since triceps get plenty of attention (good for benching) but as the antagonists the biceps get none directly

i take it i change the ME exercises after 3 weeks or so but can keep the assistance the same?

[Scourge]

thank you very much for typing all that out. :023:
No problem.

[Scourge]

Lower Body ME
Parallel Squat - ME
Good Morning - RE Good choice IMO. GMs rock. It you can do them from the bottom position, even better.
SLDL - RE Not needed with the GMs - Use cheat curls instead.*
Hanging Leg Raises

Upper Body ME
Bench - ME
Incline DB Bench - RE
Barbell Row - RE
Dips (or Pushdowns if shoulder doesnt like them) - RE Too heavy to go last. Use JM presses third and rows last.

Lower Body DE
Full Squat - DE
Rack Pulls - RE Waaaay too heavy for a DE day. Pull-throughs here. Cheat curls third.
Pull Throughs - RE (will have to learn these)
Trunk work - havent picked an exercise yet. Standing crunches?

Upper Body DE
Bench - DE
BB Military Press - RE
T-Bar Row - RE Rows go last.
Close Grip Bench - RE Put this third.


*Cheat curls - Anything goes for these. Think "hang clean with an underhand grip" and you won't be far off.

[Scourge]

i take it i change the ME exercises after 3 weeks or so but can keep the assistance the same?
That's normally what's recommended, unless you choose to use one of your current assistance exercises as you ME lift, in which case your assistance will need to be juggled around.

[666]

Very informative thread - Westside For Dummies! (Such as me.)

If you could only train twice a week, would it still work splitting these four workouts over a fortnight?

[Scourge]

Very informative thread - Westside For Dummies! (Such as me.)

If you could only train twice a week, would it still work splitting these four workouts over a fortnight?
Obviously you could, but I dunno why you would - At two sessions a week, you could train heavy all the time.

[the block]

have taken everyones suggestions on board. ended up with:

Lower ME
Parallel Squat ME
GM - RE
Cheat Curls - RE
Hanging L.Raises

Upper ME
Bench ME
Incline DB Bench - RE
JM Press - RE
BB Rows - RE

Lower DE
Box Squat DE
Pullthroughs - RE
Cheat Curls - RE
Standing Crunches

Upper DE
Bench DE
BB Military Press - RE
CG Bench - RE
T-Bar Row - RE

there were a few suggestions which i have not ignored. i'm going to do them when i change the ME and some assistance exercises in a few weeks. e.g. drop GM's and do SLDL, do speed-deads, do 1/4 squats instead of standing crunches etc...

thanks a lot to all. i have plenty to get on with for the next 2 months or so. :050: :060: :055:

[Man of Steel]

Where did you get cheat curls from Scourge? I've not heard of them being used in a powerlifting routine and what are they supposed to develop?

[666]

Obviously you could, but I dunno why you would - At two sessions a week, you could train heavy all the time.

I thought the speed sessions were beneficial? And I thought it was too taxing on the CNS to max every session?

[Scourge]

Where did you get cheat curls from Scourge? I've not heard of them being used in a powerlifting routine and what are they supposed to develop?
I don't think they'd be very useful for a powerlifter. They're supposed to be a more functional bicep exercise. Block said he want to focus his training towards being able to carry things around (on the first page) and said he wanted some direct bicep work.

Think about lifting a heavy object to your stomach or onto your chest - You're not gonna deadlift it then strict curl it there, nor will you be able to clean it unless it's a very convenient shape. Your just gonna grab it and pull, using a load of momentum to get it into place.

[Scourge]

I thought the speed sessions were beneficial? And I thought it was too taxing on the CNS to max every session?
Sure they're beneficial, but are they as beneficial as just lifting heavy? I wouldn't think so.

If you're training four times a week, they're useful because very few people can train heavy, nevermind do ME work, that often, so you're able to do more 'beneficial' workouts a week than if you just trained heavy all the time. However, the recovery times afforded by only training twice a week should let you train heavy for every session, rather undermining the need for dynamic sessions.

I think training four times a week is rather one of the more important points of Westside. If you're training twice a week, do something else.

[666]

Cool; cheers for the advice.