View Full Version : Shoulder Issue
Ok, I've injured my right shoulder twice in the past month. The pain is mainly in my shoulder but also sort of shoots down my arm. I'm thinking it might be a "repetitive strain injury" since I now do a lot with my arm - I've always played a lot of racquet sports, plus now I'm really hammering the pullups, OHPs, pushups, bench, inverted rows, DB swings. Basically everything in the gym involves my arms! I also do a lot of mobility work on it since my shoulder is pretty inflexible (perhaps because I broke it as a baby).
Last time it started hurting during badminton. This time I injured it on the train lifting my bag into the overhead compartment! (Which, by the way, I notice a lot of women can't do. Weakinglings!)
Anyway, I'm not sure what to do. Rest seems to make it better once injured, but should I be doing less in general? I'm guessing yes, but at the same time I still want to work towards my pullups and OHPs etc. And the mobility and stretching is important too, but I have a feeling it's this stretching and mobility (coupled with all this other activity) that is causing the pain. Any suggestions? Do I need to cut some exercises out?
Stage 1 denial - do nothing and assume it will be fine, continue as normal
Stage 2 denial - ice it, continue as normal
Stage 3 denial - ice, self medicate, moan, continue as best you can whilst inflicting long term damage
Stage 4 denial - go and see a slew of useless pricks who have no idea what the problem is anyway
Frodocious
15-12-2011, 22:03
Stage 1 denial - do nothing and assume it will be fine, continue as normal
Stage 2 denial - ice it, continue as normal
Stage 3 denial - ice, self medicate, moan, continue as best you can whilst inflicting long term damage
Stage 4 denial - go and see a slew of useless pricks who have no idea what the problem is anyway
Having done stages 1-3 last year (stage 4 sort of happened until I started seeing a more senior physio) and missing a year's worth of training, I would recommend going to your doctor immediately and trying to get a physio appointment. In the mean time, if you must train, don't do anything that hurts and it might be a good idea to stop overhead work completely, limit the range of motion with horizontal work (i.e. floor press rather than bench press), and try different grips (I find neutral grip exercises don't hurt my shoulder, whereas supinated or protonated grip often does) (obviously this advice is based on my experience of a shoulder impingement and your injury might be something different, but have a try at varying things and see if it helps).
kinkymisspinky
16-12-2011, 07:53
Stage 1 denial - do nothing and assume it will be fine, continue as normal
Stage 2 denial - ice it, continue as normal
Stage 3 denial - ice, self medicate, moan, continue as best you can whilst inflicting long term damage
Stage 4 denial - go and see a slew of useless pricks who have no idea what the problem is anyway
That sounds about right.
kinkymisspinky
16-12-2011, 08:10
Rest seems to make it better once injured, but should I be doing less in general? I'm guessing yes, but at the same time I still want to work towards my pullups and OHPs etc.
It depends. How quickly did you introduce the new activities and how conditioned were you beforehand? You want to introduce new activity and volume gradually so your body time to adapt and that could mean the difference between eustress and distress.
And the mobility and stretching is important too, but I have a feeling it's this stretching and mobility (coupled with all this other activity) that is causing the pain.
Possibly. Think of mobility and strength as a continuum. There's a sweet spot where you have enough of both to do your daily tasks. It's not uncommon for women to be weak and hypermobile so in that instance they would be better off doing some strength work as opposed to more stretching. As I don't know you I can't say this is the case.
Any suggestions? Do I need to cut some exercises out?
In the short term I would cut out activities that aggravate but in the longer term I would find someone that can assess your shoulder for the underlying causes of your problem. If you keep training on it you'll be adding strength to dysfunction, reinforce poor movement patterns and possibly cause yourself more problems in the future.
Ha, I like in how all of those stages you're still in denial!
That was very useful kinkymisspinky, thanks!
I'm certainly not hyper-mobile, but somewhat flexible (though certainly not in my shoulder). You're very right about adding strength to dysfunction; I definitely don't want to do that. In the past I've had someone look at my shoulder and they've said just stretch it (which I have been doing for years and it's still as inflexible as ever). Like I said, I have a feeling it's the stretching/mobility coupled with activity that's doing it, but as you say, I don't want to build strength on dysfunction (so I still need the mobility).
Maybe I need someone better to look at my shoulder, but from past experience everyone is shite. And as for doctors, as far as I can see, they actually don't want anyone to be doing exercise. Their advice to me has always been to stop doing it.
They are all shite. No-one can help you. No-one knows why stuff hurts or what's wrong. They all just guess from the limited pool of answers and information they have collected over the years and hope for the best. You may as well just ask a fortune teller. The best you can ever do is figure out for yourself what hurts and what doesn't, do the latter and not the former, try and maintain a workable amount of mobility--although in my experience a lot of the time stretching, SMR and all the rest of it can just as easily make things worse--build back up to what you were doing slowly and try not, when you test the water, to test it to soon, too frequently or too intensively.
LWStrong
16-12-2011, 09:18
Enter Timmy... the most negative **** in the world.
BOOM!
Pffft. Rather than love, than money, than fame, than the fallacious and deluded belief that there are people out there who can figure out what's wrong with you and fix it, give me truth.
plateau2
16-12-2011, 13:22
had impingement a few times
Things that have been suggested
- more horizontal pulling, with focus on proper scap retraction
- letter series, serch on here for a vid
- strengthen external rotators and mid/lower traps
- stretching lats and pecs
- up fish oil
Things that have helped me personally
- shoulder dislocates with a light band
- soft tissue work
- thumbless grip especially on any exercise where bar is on back/traps, wouldn't recommend for benching
- lighter loads on horizontal rowing, keep to weights where you can retract scap
- shoulder sleeper stretch
Mike_Hawkins
16-12-2011, 13:34
- shoulder dislocates with a light band
Definately!!!
although in my experience a lot of the time stretching, SMR and all the rest of it can just as easily make things worse--build back up to what you were doing slowly and try not, when you test the water, to test it to soon, too frequently or too intensively.
I actually think I agree with you in the case of my shoulder. It seems when I try to stretch and mobilise it (along with all the other stuff I do) that's when I get an issue. The other mobility stuff seems ok though.
I guess I'll just have to take it a bit easy (which I hate doing). I'll work on my shoulder mobility more when I actually want to do cleans. Then again I can't even front squat properly with my crap flexibility. But, as kinkymisspinky said, surely it's not good to strengthen a dysfunction?
Cheers Plat. I do lots of dislocations. I'll have a look at this letter series stuff too.
Injuries suck.
Frodocious
16-12-2011, 15:07
Have you tried Zercher squats. I found that they were ok with my dodgy shoulder.
Have you tried Zercher squats. I found that they were ok with my dodgy shoulder.
That is a good idea! Thanks for the suggestion; I was wondering how I was going to squat :)
Now I just need to find a way to bench without using my arms.
Frodocious
16-12-2011, 15:11
That is a good idea! Thanks for the suggestion; I was wondering how I was going to squat :)
Now I just need to find a way to bench without using my arms.
Use the force! Try neutral grip dumbbell benches or floor presses, they work for me!
I had to do zercher squats for quite a while whilst my shoulder was dodgy, then I moved on to front squats and it's only recently I got back to full back squats.
JonnyJames
16-12-2011, 15:14
Even when my shoulder wouldn't allow me to do anything, neutral DB floor presses were still fine.
Oh, and doing 100 light pullaparts spaced throughout the day helps a great deal.
plateau2
16-12-2011, 15:18
You might be ok pressing from pins, so restricting the depth.
Benching - close grip might be ok, expecially if you can keep elbows tucked
Decline benching/DB benching - restricted ROM does help some too
You guys are all awesome! Full of great ideas. Maybe I can still make strength gains over Christmas after all!
LWStrong
16-12-2011, 15:33
I'd go for floor press as exercise of choice if that doesn't hurt. A big floor press will equal a big bench, well, strong triceps generally equate to a big bench.
If you can nail the tech and get some speed out of the bottom you'll be about halfway before having to actually use much 'strength' anyway. Just think 'LATS and ELBOW TUCK'.
Oh yeah, if you can do a ****ing massive arch that'll help too, then it'll be like half ROM (range of motion) anyway.
plateau2
16-12-2011, 15:49
Maybe I can still make strength gains over Christmas after all!
Even if you can't train in an ideal fashion, you can still work on weak points IME.
kinkymisspinky
16-12-2011, 17:11
It seems when I try to stretch and mobilise it (along with all the other stuff I do) that's when I get an issue. The other mobility stuff seems ok though.
You could well be doing the wrong thing. I had a client who's PT was giving her lots of external rotations to do because she had a 'shoulder issue'. On testing and palpation her external rotators were horribly short and full of trigger points so the PT was actually making her problem worse by his exercise selection. Generally most people would benefit from improved strength in their external rotators but this woman didn't. The intervention needs to be appropriate to the individual. Quite often the areas that feel 'tight' aren't necessarily the areas that need releasing. Sometimes they're tight because something else is weak or because they are weak.
Some good suggestions for alternative exercises from all.
Quite often the areas that feel 'tight' aren't necessarily the areas that need releasing. Sometimes they're tight because something else is weak or because they are weak.
Yeah, you're right here. I've been listening to a lot of podcasts on these issues, trying to learn a bit more. Problem is finding what the issue actually is. Like Tim said, no one seems to know wat they are talking about.
Warm up with dislocates, then work on power snatches.
Warm up with dislocates, then work on power snatches.
That is retarded advice if you already have pain in that ROM.
plateau2
19-12-2011, 07:38
That is retarded advice if you already have pain in that ROM.
Let us know how you really feel Dave!
Let us know how you really feel Dave!
I'm just saying
plateau2
19-12-2011, 08:11
I'm just saying
I know mate!
Actually, I was thinking the same thing. No way I can do power snatches yet anyway, even if my shoulder didn't hurt.
Actually, I was thinking the same thing. No way I can do power snatches yet anyway, even if my shoulder didn't hurt.
Why ever not?
Dislocates, only going backwards and power snatches can be magic manna to cure a whole range of ills caused by a desk based posture.
Why ever not?
Dislocates, only going backwards and power snatches can be magic manna to cure a whole range of ills caused by a desk based posture.
Shoulder issues can be far more complicated to solve than just 'doing dislocates'. Indeed, if there is an impingement issue, they might actually make it worse. Also, snatching is not a great shoulder saver, quite the opposite. Holding a barbell overhead is exactly what somebody with poor posture should NOT be doing, you have to earn the right to be good overhead and if you don't have the required mobility in the t-spine etc then it will cause more harm than good.
I'm sure you guys knew this already but I was surprised to learn today that shoulder "issues" can be related to lack of ROM, stability and function of the hip on the opposite side. Possible issues with the ITB contribute too, as well as dysfunction of the lats (this one was less surprising to me). Apparently getting the glute medius to fire faster and more efficiently means the TFL will more likely be used as a mover, rather than a stabiliser. I find it both surprising and interesting that this can all be related to the shoulder. Perhaps I'm more broken than I initially realised. I definitely need to learn more about all of this.
The body is far too complicated for you to learn how it works part time. You'll just end up second guessing yourself as to what the **** is going on when you don't really understand the bigger picture. Focus on doing what you can ie not making it worse and managing it. Bearing the 'if it hurts stop' rule in mind, you can do some general things that MIGHT help - improve t-spine mobility for instance, but you won't really know whether your actions affected the injury or not. If you feel that it is bad enough for you need further advice, consult a professional with experience in rehabilitation - not a strength coach or personal trainer who may have some knowledge and fancy a punt at it.
The body is far too complicated for you to learn how it works part time. You'll just end up second guessing yourself as to what the **** is going on when you don't really understand the bigger picture. Focus on doing what you can ie not making it worse and managing it. Bearing the 'if it hurts stop' rule in mind, you can do some general things that MIGHT help - improve t-spine mobility for instance, but you won't really know whether your actions affected the injury or not. If you feel that it is bad enough for you need further advice, consult a professional with experience in rehabilitation - not a strength coach or personal trainer who may have some knowledge and fancy a punt at it.
Good advice there. I was definitely just going to keep doing what I'm doing for now. I just find it interesting to learn more. You're right though, I'll try not to let what I learn make me do something stupid, because I'm sure it's a very complicated issue. One day I think I'd quite like to be able to do a decent front rack though, but at the moment I can't see that happening. We'll see I guess!
With my sensible coaching hat on I'd say - be careful of training though pain, it can affect the way you move long term etc and you should get the issue sorted before stacking volume onto it etc
With my own hat on - my shoulder was so bad I couldn't use my left arm for 6 months really, zero pressing done at all, couldn't open a door, struggled to sleep and now its totally fine. If i'd seen somebody decent at the time though, all of the stupid issues I'm dealing with now might well have never become a big problem though...
I definitely want to try to avoid training through pain as much as possible. I agree I should get the issue sorted but firstly I don't particularly want to spend a lot of money if I can help it (of course if it's getting horrifically bad then I don't mind spending if it means I can move pain-free). Secondly do you know anyone with specific experience in shoulder rehab? I'd trust Eric Cressey and Gray Cook to sort me out for sure (but I imagine that would cost a small fortune)!
Any idea what fixed your shoulder? You seem pretty mobile now, in the shoulders at least. Or are you still struggling with them? What issues are you dealing with now that might have been prevented? And yet again, there's the issue of actually finding someone decent without first spending a tonne of money on people who don't know what they are doing.
Seeing a guy in Totnes who is spot on. Didn't ask for money until I was happy that we were getting some results. My shoulders move fairly well, not perfectly though. What I'm dealing with is bilateral femoral acetabular impingement. Anti-win.
kinkymisspinky
23-12-2011, 21:24
My shoulders move fairly well, not perfectly though. What I'm dealing with is bilateral femoral acetabular impingement. Anti-win.
That sucks. Were both shoulders affected by the hip impingements?
My left hip is more impinged (less IR) but my right psoas is tighter, leading to a slight pelvic torsion. Left shoulder was the bad one. Sort of makes sense I guess. The impingements aren't structural so I am hopeful of resolving them.
I really hope you can resolve it. Do you think it's worth getting my shoudler looked at even if I'm not in pain (I think I'm healing now)? My ROM is pretty poor and trying to increase it seems to be what causes pain. In my opinion that is indicative of a problem, even if I'm not constantly in agony.
Would you mind giving me the details of this bloke so I can look him up? Maybe PM me?
Joe Kelly, barefootathlete@gmail.com , spot on bloke. Drop him an email an see what he says.
plateau2
24-12-2011, 18:08
Didn't ask for money until I was happy that we were getting some results.
wowsers.
wowsers.
He is spot on mate, highly recommend him.
Nice one, cheers for that Dave.
No worries. If he does to you what he does to me, it hurts like ****.
Thanks for the warning. I err.. look forward to it!
I wouldn't, it ****ing wrecks.
Reckon he has any mates up this way he'd recommend?
Reckon he has any mates up this way he'd recommend?
I'll ask him next time I see him. He is the first person I've come across who actually has a clue what the **** he is on about and is interested to learn, rather than a money grabbing **** wit who just throws the textbook shit around.
I'll ask him next time I see him. He is the first person I've come across who actually has a clue what the **** he is on about and is interested to learn, rather than a money grabbing **** wit who just throws the textbook shit around.
A rare commodity then.
A rare commodity then.
I'm hoping so.
Can I get a bump on this thread?
Any recommendations on who to see for shoulder pain? (not an actual name, I mean osteopath, doctor, etc)
What's the issue?
See if you can go see Alex? Maybe?
plateau2
02-05-2012, 16:07
Any recommendations on who to see for shoulder pain? (not an actual name, I mean osteopath, doctor, etc)
Well a doctor has never helped me with any sporting issues
had a lot of luck finding an osetopath who has helped me, would try and find someone who actually lifts.
Umm KMP?
JonnyJames
02-05-2012, 16:08
I think the answer's going to be much the same as before - someone who does what Joe does. I did ask him if he knew anyone round Chi's and/or Frodo's way but he didn't - I imagine London might be a different matter. I'll ask him next time I see him.
GoldenArrow
02-05-2012, 16:11
I don't know of anyone...
plateau2
02-05-2012, 16:14
I don't know of anyone...
Maybe Jonny can put you in touch with the guy who abused him in a London park?
What's the issue?
See if you can go see Alex? Maybe?
left shoulder, hurts to bench with and to sleep on. Has slowly improved as I couldn't even push myself up using my desk a few weeks ago. Feels slightly creaky too...
My injury turned out to be trigger points. Many, many trigger points. I'm still working on them, but am mostly pain-free now.
This is not a recommendation on who you can see, but a vid that could possibly help you. Maybe you've seen it already, but I'll post it anyway, jus incase someone else hasn't.
2y_A4xfbGUU&
Hmm.. some new exercises I haven't seen before in that, cheers Steve!
My video:
oRVzMgwNpVM
I know it's titled Carpal Tunnel Secret, but the Scalenes are a big player in shoulder and arm pain. You might want to see if there's any pain when you massage them. Will take 2 mins and is free! I'd also have a look at that e-book Chi posted wrt Trigger points. I'm not saying that's definitely the answer, but I would say it's worth trying.
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