Pulling For Sport

[PikeKing]

its been a while since the pushing for sport thread, so now its time for pulling.

what do you think is the best exercise for training the upper back pulling muscles for a sport?

lets leave cleans and other total body pulls out for now.

so?

vertical vs horizontal? when would you need to pull someone from above? does that matter?

pull ups? chin ups? pulldowns? the latter has to be inferior if you think of the core and control component involved with hauling your body toward a bar.

rows? more mid back involvement?

DBs, BBs, Cables?

whats everyones thoughts on this?

[666]

I'm going to go for BB rows, some sets with an iso. You can use plenty weight, need to stabilise your whole body against the weight, most sport pulling situations I can think of are horizontal and a lot of them involve holding an object / opponent to your chest, hence the iso.

[chi]

Why would you not include cleans and full body movements? Surely most if not all sports will require you to pull explosively using your whole body and not to row strictly.

Thinking outloud so this is probably flawed but i think you could do well using cleans, back extensions and arm over arm rope pulls/drags.

[Sloth]

pull ups, DB rows (non strict), shrugs, farmers..def the farmers.

there is a good article on this stuff on beyond strong, **** knows where though. if someone finds it post it up.

[ATZ]

Getting better as Chins/Pull-ups has definately made me stronger, whether this has carryover to sport is a mute point as PK points out - when do you ever pull someone from above? However, if an article I read on T-nation (http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1344676) is to beleived, strong lats can also influence sprinting speed, I think Cressey is normally pretty good so I'll accept his research on this.


Take-Home Points

There was some science, some anatomy, some theory, and some recommendations here, so let's take a moment to bring the practical applications together:

1. Most people need to pay more attention to vertical pulling movements, as doing so will increase squat, deadlift, and bench press poundages; improve shoulder, upper back/neck, hip, and lower back health; enhance running speed; and wallop loads of quality mass on the upper back.

The only exception to this rule would be the individual who fails the test of latissimus dorsi ROM. He'll need to work on tissue length and quality before he can "get after it."

2. In addition, people need to appreciate that the lat is doing a lot more than just working on the humerus; it's probably the single-most influential muscle in the entire body, if you really think about it.

Learning to activate it isometrically in the squat and deadlift will enhance lumbar spine stability. Learning to pull the bar down on the eccentric component of the bench press will enhance stability, improve leg drive transfer, and help the lifter breath correctly during the lift.

3. Don't overlook the role of the fascial system in human function. Specific to this discussion, pay close attention to the spiral line (shoulder to opposite hip and ankle) and thoracolumbar fascia, both of which are intimately related to the latissimus dorsi. Regular soft-tissue work can make a big difference in how you feel and perform.

And you thought the lats only came into play during the pulldown....


Talking from experinece I HATE, no DETEST BB Rows, I don't know why either, but I do like DB rows, especially the Waterbury version from the floor. I think that cleans should be avoided by newbs as they do take some decent level of coaching to be able to get their full benefits and to be performed safely, KB cleans on the other hand I like.

Tell me, why has nobody mentioned the Deadlift and it variants? (Andy I knw you said you wanted to leave full body movements out but these are a great upper back developer) Surely THE most important pulling movement in any sport?

[PikeKing]

Why would you not include cleans and full body movements? Surely most if not all sports will require you to pull explosively using your whole body and not to row strictly.


because i said upper body pulling, simple as that, I dont dispute what you say about cleans at all.

[PikeKing]

pull ups, DB rows (non strict), shrugs, farmers..def the farmers.

there is a good article on this stuff on beyond strong, **** knows where though. if someone finds it post it up.

whats your thinking behind the non strict rows?

those kroc rows everyones doing lately make me sick

[PikeKing]

Thats good stuff there Aled

Lats being a part of the posterior oblique system means they are a very important muscle, involved in all kinds of rotation movements. Running in particular, I bet if you took a load of sprinters from beijing and test their pullups, they'd be pretty high.

I chose pullups in my run up to my judo grading as my main back exercise over a row movement because I believe they target the lats more. Which in turn is going to very much benefit my rotation/anti rotation strength.

I do have a real problem in feeling like they are firing though

[maler]

deleted

[Sloth]

i agree with that t-nation buzz, def true. lats from what ive read make a good diff in sprinting.

pk - it works wonder for me when i do them. mass and strength. i like db rows alot. just havent got a db big enough anymore.

[666]

Running in particular, I bet if you took a load of sprinters from beijing and test their pullups, they'd be pretty high.


But how do you know if that's cause or effect? Surely you would expect muscular, powerful, low body-fat athletes who perform a bodyweight-related sport to be good at pull-ups and sprinting regardless of their effects on each other. It's flawed logic to say that just because they are both good that one causes the other.

[chi]

My memory of the article is not that they are saying if you train to increase pull-ups your sprinting will improve, but rather if you train two people the same way to increase their pull-ups the one that does better is more likely to be a better sprinter too. IE they have found the correlation but do not know the exact reasons why.

[666]

Lol, is it me or is that just common sense?

[ATZ]

But how do you know if that's cause or effect? Surely you would expect muscular, powerful, low body-fat athletes who perform a bodyweight-related sport to be good at pull-ups and sprinting regardless of their effects on each other. It's flawed logic to say that just because they are both good that one causes the other.

Yes, bit why are they muscular? I'd have thought of all track athletes sprinters spend a decent proportion of their time in the gym. Strengthening a muscle that increaes torso stability as well as influences arm drive can surely only have a positive correlation to track speed?

[666]

Yes, but so does everything to some degree; pressing helps with arm drive, OH squats help with leg strength and torso stability etc. etc. I bet you'd get the same correlation with press-ups or sit-ups as they have for pull-ups; I would guess that quick sprinting generally equates to all-round good power to BW ratio and the actual exercise used to test this is irrelevant.

[ATZ]

Yes but have you considered the size and the function of those muscles compared to the lats? I'll wait for someone with more anatomy knowledge and how it works in a sporting context to chime in but at I guess stregthening muscles such as the lats would be far more benficial than say the triceps, I doubt press-ups or sit-ups would provide similar correlation in increased perfomance as pull-ups in an already trained athlete.

[Sloth]

ive read something about the lats for running before. possibly on joe d's site.
sit ups and press ups dont do shit anyway, unless you have half your weight + added to you, imo.

[chi]

I may be able to shed some light on why people who are good at sprinting and also good at pull ups. the first reason which KJ touched on was that people who are good at chins are probably going to be naturally more powerful AND lighter in body mass. this isn't always they case however if the athlete is light and powerful they will more than likely be better at propelling their body. i think this is a fairly obvious reason.

the second reason is a little more technical but highly valid when it comes to the lat-glute relationship in sprinting. each glute and its contralateral lat muscle make up what is known as the posterior sling. basically, when one contracts the glute muscle in order to propel themselves, the contralateral latissimus dorsi also contracts which is seen through shoulder extension.

the lat basically counteracts the glute creating a kind of torque force which propels the pelvis forward, which at the end of the day is the aim of the glute muscle in sprinting. strong lats that can counteract the strong glute muscle ensure no power is lost when the glute contracts and hence such things as stride length are increased which is a massive factor in sprint speed.
.

[PikeKing]

OH Squats are a shit exercise for performance enhancement in most cases, sure they are cool and hard to do but so is shafting bin laden on a power plate while being spanked with a body blade, truth is hardly anyone uses OH squats unless their training system includes the development of Oly lifts, and thats another topic.

pressups would actually have a lot less correlation than you'd think or any press for that matter as they dont actively target any muscles from any of the 4 slings, sit ups i'd prob say the same thing too.

although i'm not saying for 1 minute that the same sprinters wouldnt score really highly on press ups and sit ups.

i seem to have opened a can of worms with this.

the lats are extremely important, they do far more than just pull, they play an enourmous role in the gait cycle

[ATZ]

So having cleared up the issue of how much an important role the lats actually play would anyone argue against the chin/pull up being the number one upper body pulling movement for sports?

[PikeKing]

yup i'd go for that i think

[Sloth]

hmmm. you rekon, you dont think an arm over arm would be more beneficial. the chin/pull up i personally find doesnt hit the lats that much, and more the central muscles. i think AoA would be alot better, more movement specific (more than a chin anyway) and alot more weight can be used.

[JB]

Chins/Pulls for me, no doubt. The Bulgarians used it, alongside the standing long jump, to evaluate potential weightlifters- nuff said. If you're allowed diff grips there's plenty of variety.

Sloth- Do you not think athletes would benefit more from moving their own body through space rather than working in a static position? Also, and i don't know the answer to this, just thinking aloud. Would chins carry over to AoA but not vice versa?

[666]

There's no eccentric to arm over arm, so perhaps not so great for growth, but you might be able to do more with less soreness.

[Sloth]

but as a sprinter is it beneficial to have more mass, we all know mass doesnt equate directly to strength.

[PikeKing]

hmmm interesting, i've never had the pleasure of doing an arm over arm pull so i cant really comment.

i like the idea of no eccentrics, for times when doms could be a bitch

[chi]

hmmm interesting, i've never had the pleasure of doing an arm over arm pull so i cant really comment.

i like the idea of no eccentrics, for times when doms could be a bitch


I'll tell you what its like when my 15m of 32mm rope arrives.

[PikeKing]

show off

[666]

but as a sprinter is it beneficial to have more mass, we all know mass doesnt equate directly to strength.

Well this is sport in general rather than just sprinting, bulk is useful for a lot of sports.