Quick Questions!

[DelBoy]

I've been looking over my routine (which I'm really enjoying), but I'm concerned in a few areas of it so I was wondering if I could ask a few (4) quick questions to everyone, any opinions much appreciated.

1. On Monday's session I do 4x3 Wide Grip Chins (althoguh 6 sets last week), do you think it is worth doing 4x3 Wide Grip Chins and 4x3 Barbell Rows, so I have some form of horizontal movement aswell as a vertical one?

2. Do you think a fews sets of Stiff Legged-Deadlifts (3x3/3x5?) would be helpful for some extra Hamstring work?

3. I am going to add in 3 sets of Overhead Squats on Friday, what rep range do you think is best - I was thinking of 3x5 or 4x3.

4. I am going to add in some Rear Delt Raises (3 sets) on Wednesday. Do you think 8 reps would be the best number of these, or would you suggest dropping to 6?

Replies here or in my journal would be a great help thanks.

Cheers.

[blacklab]

Hey Del, why the rear delt raises? I imagine they're already getting hit pretty well from your other lifts.

[GoldenArrow]

1. Yes
2. Yes, if needed.
3. 3x5 out of those two, I prefer 10's for these as a form/flexibility aid.
4. Don't know why you're doing them or your routine so I'll not comment.

[Mike]

I've been looking over my routine (which I'm really enjoying), but I'm concerned in a few areas of it so I was wondering if I could ask a few (4) quick questions to everyone, any opinions much appreciated.

1. On Monday's session I do 4x3 Wide Grip Chins (althoguh 6 sets last week), do you think it is worth doing 4x3 Wide Grip Chins and 4x3 Barbell Rows, so I have some form of horizontal movement aswell as a vertical one?

2. Do you think a fews sets of Stiff Legged-Deadlifts (3x3/3x5?) would be helpful for some extra Hamstring work?

3. I am going to add in 3 sets of Overhead Squats on Friday, what rep range do you think is best - I was thinking of 3x5 or 4x3.

4. I am going to add in some Rear Delt Raises (3 sets) on Wednesday. Do you think 8 reps would be the best number of these, or would you suggest dropping to 6?


Cheers.

1. Yes

2. No Romanian deadlifts would be better but depends on your whole routine.

3. Depends what you want out of it and the what the rest of the routine is.

4. Rear delt raises are gay. If you do use them 6 or 8 is fine, although people seem to favour higher reps on these, maybe because of form.

[DelBoy]

Well because I'm doing alot of volume for Deltoids (Anterior) 18 work sets and 6 warm ups sets (from Floor Press, Military Press and Press Ups)) on Wednesday, and I'm only doing Deadlifts and Wide Grip Chin Ups on my back day so I thought that they might need abit more work just to keep my shoulders in balance. I only considered it after reading a few things from Robert. What do you think mate?

Got any other opinions on my other questions mate?

[Mike]

Well because I'm doing alot of volume for Deltoids (Anterior) 18 work sets and 6 warm ups sets (from Floor Press, Military Press and Press Ups)) on Wednesday, and I'm only doing Deadlifts and Wide Grip Chin Ups on my back day so I thought that they might need abit more work just to keep my shoulders in balance. I only considered it after reading a few things from Robert. What do you think mate?

Got any other opinions on my other questions mate?

Reading what from Robert? I made my feeling clear to him about rear delts in his journal. I wouldnt do them.
Rows are enough for rear delts so do those.

What other questions? I answered 4/4.

[DelBoy]

This is my routine at the moment

MONDAY
Deadlifts - 10 work sets / 2-1 reps
Wide Grip Chins - 6 work sets / 3 reps

WEDNESDAY
Floor Press - 7 work sets / 3-2 reps
Military Press - 8 work sets / 3-1 reps
Press Ups - 3 work sets / 12 reps

FRIDAY
Back Squats - 9 work sets / 3-1 reps
Speed Front Squats - 4 sets / 3 reps

Plus some grip work (grippers and plate pinching added in)

Hope that helps guys

[blacklab]

Yeah, but yours and Robert's goals are pretty different at this point. Rear delt raises are a bodybuilding excercise (and a phenomenal waste of time, IMO). If you want shoulder strength, in addition to your deads and chins (and rows) you should LIFT HEAVY WEIGHTS ABOVE YOUR HEAD! Forget about these poncy (is that how you guys spell it?) raises.

[blacklab]

This is my routine at the moment

MONDAY
Deadlifts - 10 work sets / 2-1 reps
Wide Grip Chins - 6 work sets / 3 reps

WEDNESDAY
Floor Press - 7 work sets / 3-2 reps
Military Press - 8 work sets / 3-1 reps
Press Ups - 3 work sets / 12 reps

FRIDAY
Back Squats - 9 work sets / 3-1 reps
Speed Front Squats - 4 sets / 3 reps

Plus some grip work (grippers and plate pinching added in)

Hope that helps guys
You should add rows to Monday, lower the number of sets and raise the reps on Wednesday (4x6, 3x5), and add SLDL's to Friday.
If you have the energy to perfom any more on any of these days, you're not using enough weight.

[Mike]

Yeah, but yours and Robert's goals are pretty different at this point. Rear delt raises are a bodybuilding excercise (and a phenomenal waste of time, IMO). If you want shoulder strength, in addition to your deads and chins (and rows) you should LIFT HEAVY WEIGHTS ABOVE YOUR HEAD! Forget about these poncy (is that how you guys spell it?) raises.

Robert wanted to improve his pressing with rdr then wanted to balance his delts. I didnt agree with either.

[DelBoy]

So would this routine look better then?

MONDAY
Deadlifts - 10 work sets / 2-1 reps
Wide Grip Chins - 4 work sets / 3 reps
Barbell Rows 4 work sets/ 3 reps

WEDNESDAY
Floor Press - 7 work sets / 3-2 reps
Military Press - 8 work sets / 3-1 reps
Press Ups - 3 work sets / 10 reps

FRIDAY
Back Squats - 8 work sets / 3-1 reps
Speed Front Squats - 4 work sets / 3 reps
Overhead Squats - 3 work sets / 5 reps
Stiff Legged Deadlifts - 3 work sets / 5 reps

[Mike]

You should add rows to Monday, lower the number of sets and raise the reps on Wednesday (4x6, 3x5), and add SLDL's to Friday.
If you have the energy to perfom any more on any of these days, you're not using enough weight.

I agree with that except do Rdeads instead of sldl.

[blacklab]

So would this routine look better then?

MONDAY
Deadlifts - 10 work sets / 2-1 reps
Wide Grip Chins - 4 work sets / 3 reps
Barbell Rows 4 work sets/ 3 reps

WEDNESDAY
Floor Press - 7 work sets / 3-2 reps
Military Press - 8 work sets / 3-1 reps
Press Ups - 3 work sets / 10 reps

FRIDAY
Back Squats - 8 work sets / 3-1 reps
Speed Front Squats - 4 work sets / 3 reps
Overhead Squats - 3 work sets / 5 reps
Stiff Legged Deadlifts - 3 work sets / 5 reps

Looks a lot better, bro. I second mike's advice about the Rdeads, too. Just curios, why no bench?

[help]

floor press + military press work almost the same things

if you do close grip press ups and go down untill your testicles and face touch the floor then they are a worth while inclusion

you will probably not be able to train speed strength or strength speed after any maximal efforts

I agree with the above, RDLs would be better than SLDLs in this case assuming you pul conventionally

heavy wide grip chins = destrroyed rotators unless you have good experience with OH work

something tells me you dont

[GoldenArrow]

What about GM's instead of SLDL/RDL? (and reasons)....just interested..

[PikeKing]

I would always do some direct rear delt or RC work, yeah rows hit them but they also massive hit the lats as you know so that arguement doesnt really work

[blacklab]

Makes sense. My only comment is that if you're looking to strengthen your RC's, there are better movements than rear delt raises. Unfortunately, I have no idea what they're called. I was shown them by my doctor after tearing my RC a couple of years ago.

[PikeKing]

Makes sense. My only comment is that if you're looking to strengthen your RC's, there are better movements than rear delt raises. Unfortunately, I have no idea what they're called. I was shown them by my doctor after tearing my RC a couple of years ago.
I know thats why I said rear delt OR RC work.

Meaning some kind of work for muscles involved in external rotation

[DelBoy]

floor press + military press work almost the same things

if you do close grip press ups and go down untill your testicles and face touch the floor then they are a worth while inclusion

you will probably not be able to train speed strength or strength speed after any maximal efforts

I agree with the above, RDLs would be better than SLDLs in this case assuming you pul conventionally

heavy wide grip chins = destrroyed rotators unless you have good experience with OH work

something tells me you dont
I only floor press because I haven't got my bench yet.

What are RDLs?

The speed work felt OK last week, I'll see how it goes this week.

Why are wide grip chins bad for your RC's? They feel OK at the moment, would it be worth swapping them for close grip underhand chins?

[Man of Steel]

Romanian deadlifts are like SLDL's but you stick your arse out more, keep your back arched and the bar is kept about four inches away from your body during the motion. Here's a clip of Rumanian deadlifts (http://www.bsu.edu/webapps/strengthlab/images/rdl.mpg) . Do close grip chins instead of wide grip.

[blacklab]

Why are wide grip chins bad for your RC's? They feel OK at the moment, would it be worth swapping them for close grip underhand chins?

IMO, wide chins aren't that bad for you, but they do put strain on the RC's. You could swap underhand chins, but they are substantially differnent excercises. What I would do is drop the chins for the time being and add a couple more sets of rows. After a few weeks, maybe add underhand chins to hit your bi's if you want. Rows are a great power excercise, by the way, so it might not hurt to really concentrate on them for a little while.

[the block]

i've done OHS at lower reps and with sets of 10 and i prefer the sets of 10. when i was doing the lower reps i was working with 57.5kg for 3 or 5 reps (cant remember). i can now do 50kg for sets of 10. having more reps to do has helped my form and rythym and also i feel that it has given my shoulders a chance to adapt whereas due to & with the lower reps the weight increase was too quick imo.

[the block]

why the higher reps with the pressups?

i would also as suggested lower the sets a touch and raise the volume a teeny bit on wednesday but it seems that you want 18 sets on each day.
also with the amount of work you have in your routine it looks like its going to take ages to complete a session.

[help]

wide grip chins open the shoulder capsule in the same way that bench with your arms out at 90degress does. It can be bad in the long term if you plan on using your arms a lot

[Robert]

Mike you fcuking muppet. Go back and read the debate, again.

I said, and I quote:

1. Rear Delt Raises are not intended to boost my pressing.
They are there to improve my rowing and chinning. I.e. To balence out all the pressing.
And I stick by that.

[Mike]

Mike you fcuking muppet. Go back and read the debate, again.

I said, and I quote:



And I stick by that.

eventually you may of said that, your opening argument didnt.

[Robert]

eventually you may of said that, your opening argument didnt.
That post was my second out of god knows how many on the subject. If you look at the one preceeding that, it says exactly the same thing in different words.

RDR's are an important part of any routine that involves a lot of emphasis on pressing. Remember, I am doing Benching, DB Benching, CGBenching, Dips, Weighted Pressups and OHP -and all for lots of volume. The only pulling I have is Cleans [5x2], Rows [3x8] and Chins [whatever I can manage after Rows]. Giggle all you want, it'll be me with balanced shoulders in the long run lad.

[Mike]

I know thats why I said rear delt OR RC work.

Meaning some kind of work for muscles involved in external rotation

Rob I did comment that there are better rd exercises, just that I dont do them so I couldnt advise you confidently.

[Mike]

Ok so you do lots of pressing for anterior delts, why not do lots of pulling for posterior delts?

But you do I hear you say. So why the extra rd work? Did mp advise you to do it?

[Robert]

Ok so you do lots of pressing for anterior delts, why not do lots of pulling for posterior delts?

But you do I hear you say. So why the extra rd work? Did mp advise you to do it?
LMAO @ MP. The only advice I would take off him would be "how to make your lies so unconvincing that it makes President Bush look like a freakin' saint." Training advice? Hell no.

Anyways... I don't do lots of pulling for posterior delts. Thats why I am doing lots of Cubans and some RDR's.

Over the course of last week I did:
15+24+24+15+24+24=126 reps of pressing.
And only 10+24+7=42 reps of pulling.

[Mike]

LMAO @ MP. The only advice I would take off him would be "how to make your lies so unconvincing that it makes President Bush look like a freakin' saint." Training advice? Hell no.

Anyways... I don't do lots of pulling for posterior delts. Thats why I am doing lots of Cubans and some RDR's.

Over the course of last week I did:
15+24+24+15+24+24=126 reps of pressing.
And only 10+24+7=42 reps of pulling.

LMAO! Good I was worried for a second.

Your pulling is using lower reps and at a higher intensity, so tallying up reps to compare is meaningless.

[Robert]

I really cannot be arsed to total up the volume in kg lifted/week by posterior/anterior delts. But you know aswell as I do, the only pulling that is high in intensity is the powercleans. The volumes are so different they are almost incomparable.

EDIT:

Total volume pressed in 1 week: 9440kg.
Total volume pulled in 1 week: 1645kg.

The pressing one is a very conservative estimate based on my MP/Dip/CGB day.

[Mike]

I really cannot be arsed to total up the volume in kg lifted/week by posterior/anterior delts. But you know aswell as I do, the only pulling that is high in intensity is the powercleans. The volumes are so different they are almost incomparable.

I'm sure those totals are true for most routines (assuming they are correct)yet from a strength perspective, I doubt most people have a pulling weakness. I dont. My row is 125% of my bench and my row is a weak point. I did rdr for one session about 5 years ago, and dont do any rd work directly at all.

You still want weight gain right? If your rear delts are small then train them.
This balance crap is irrelevant.

[Mike]

I would always do some direct rear delt or RC work, yeah rows hit them but they also massive hit the lats as you know so that arguement doesnt really work

Benching also works the anterior delts, but massively the pecs/tri's does that mean I would need to isolate the anterior delts? This is true for many compound exercises.

If I isolated all the muscularture of the body I would need 5-7 sessions a week at 2-3 hours each, plus intensity would be pathetic. This is not an efficient way of training neither is it productive.

[PikeKing]

I would still do rear delt work, I see loads of people in the gyms I work at doing rows with their lats but missing the correct shoulder retraction, say you do lots of rowing to balance the pressing still doesnt work. Rows nail the lats (int rot) and all the pressing nails internal rotators also. So by strenthening the rear delts with rows you will also strengthen the lats so the strengths relative to each other remains the same unless of course you are pulling higher.

On a personal note I stopped my rear delt and RC work and then 4 weeks later I get injured.

[PikeKing]

Benching also works the anterior delts, but massively the pecs/tri's does that mean I would need to isolate the anterior delts?

is that a serious question or are you just taking the piss, of course you dont need to isolate the anterior delts because they are never weak

[Mike]

Pk See above.

I would still do rear delt work, I see loads of people in the gyms I work at doing rows with their lats but missing the correct shoulder retraction

Thats some people though.

On a personal note I stopped my rear delt and RC work and then 4 weeks later I get injured

I'm the opposite, never do it, never injured. Cubans work the RC, do these instead of raises.

[Mike]

is that a serious question or are you just taking the piss, of course you dont need to isolate the anterior delts because they are never weak

Neither, its a statement. To follow Robs theory you need to balance everything out so you would need to work all muscles ondividually for this to occur. Delts are not special in being required to be balanced. If delts should be balanced then everything should be balanced, this would take an eternity.

[PikeKing]

.
I'm the opposite, never do it, never injured. Cubans work the RC, do these instead of raises.
*yawn*

I dont do raises for the RC I've said that already, I do them for the post delts. I would also so do some kind of lateral rotation movement for the RC

[Mike]

*yawn*

I dont do raises for the RC I've said that already, I do them for the post delts. I would also so do some kind of lateral rotation movement for the RC

Sorry if my lack of upper injury bores you but my lower body is not as fortunate.

[PikeKing]

Neither, its a statement. To follow Robs theory you need to balance everything out so you would need to work all muscles ondividually for this to occur. Delts are not special in being required to be balanced. If delts should be balanced then everything should be balanced, this would take an eternity.
Have you considered that Roberts may need work?

Well they do as he is pretty internally rotated. Everyone should pay attention to anything that is out of balance.

[PikeKing]

Sorry if my lack of upper injury bores you but my lower body is not as fortunate.
ok what the fcuk does that mean?

[DelBoy]

This is my revised routine after reading everything. Will do some RC work but will have to research it first to find out. PikeKing do you have any info mate?

MONDAY
Deadlifts - 10 work sets / 2-1 reps
Medium Grip Overhand Chins - 4 work sets / 3 reps
Barbell Rows 4 work sets/ 3 reps

WEDNESDAY
Floor Press - 7 work sets / 3-2 reps
Military Press - 7 work sets / 3-1 reps
Press Ups - 3 work sets / 5 reps

FRIDAY
Back Squats - 10 work sets / 3-1 reps
Front Squats - 4 work sets / 3 reps
Stiff Legged Deadlifts - 4 work sets / 3 reps

Look OK??

:026:

[Man of Steel]

Here's a T-mag article about the rotator cuff and some exercises Rotator cuff (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=280rotator2) , I like cuban rotations. Pull ups'll hit your lats more than chins.

[blacklab]

This is my revised routine after reading everything. Will do some RC work but will have to research it first to find out. PikeKing do you have any info mate?

MONDAY
Deadlifts - 10 work sets / 2-1 reps
Medium Grip Overhand Chins - 4 work sets / 3 reps
Barbell Rows 4 work sets/ 3 reps

WEDNESDAY
Floor Press - 7 work sets / 3-2 reps
Military Press - 7 work sets / 3-1 reps
Press Ups - 3 work sets / 5 reps

FRIDAY
Back Squats - 10 work sets / 3-1 reps
Front Squats - 4 work sets / 3 reps
Stiff Legged Deadlifts - 4 work sets / 3 reps

Look OK??

:026:

Hmm ... I'm still a little leary about the number of sets/reps with the floor and military press. However, nothing is written in stone so if it works then go for it. You can always change it up later when you get a bench.

[DelBoy]

What do you mean? Should I do less sets? Maybe 6 each exercise?
What do you mean about reps? Should I do more? I prefer lower reps for all exercises really, and especially these 2.
I'll be getting a bench soon, well when I can find one - need to search for one.

[blacklab]

What do you mean? Should I do less sets? Maybe 6 each exercise?
What do you mean about reps? Should I do more? I prefer lower reps for all exercises really, and especially these 2.
I'll be getting a bench soon, well when I can find one - need to search for one.

For the floor press, you're probably fine with 7 sets of 2-3 reps because it's a power movement that I assume you'll be substituting standard bench for soon (although I would personally do 6 work sets and up the weight a bit). I think with military press, however, that you'd benefit more in the long run from doing a more standardized scheme - 4x6, 5x5, 3x5, etc. It's been my experience that the "big lifts" (squat, deads, bench) respond well to low reps and more sets, but that assistance moves are better performed with a slightly higher rep range - more volume stimulates the muscle in a slightly different fashion that can increase its efficiency. Now, if you're in the 4-6 rep range you should only be doing 4 or 5 sets. If you're able to do more, you're not using enough weight. Then there's the growth aspect. I'm not sure if you're really concerned with size at this point, but if you are your muscles will surely grow more with a little extra volume.

[Mike]

This thread has confused the sh1t out of me. I know Rob wants to balance his delts. Balance what? The way they look? Strength?

From his knew found bbing I would have though it is looks as opposed to anything else. Prehab was not mentioned in the journal, it was just balance.
I am saying balance doesnt need to be worked for (in my case anyway). Thats it. I do 10 sets of pull and 10 for push. No isolation at all. Prehab is different.

[Mike]

*yawn*

I dont do raises for the RC I've said that already, I do them for the post delts. I would also so do some kind of lateral rotation movement for the RC

Balancing delts doesnt mean rehab (to me at least)

[Mike]

Have you considered that Roberts may need work?

Well they do as he is pretty internally rotated. Everyone should pay attention to anything that is out of balance.

Rob has stated to avoid any balance problems im not aware if they currently exist. I agree, with the paying attention to anything out of balance.

[Mike]

ok what the fcuk does that mean?

You have pm.

[help]

doing rotator cuff every so often when your a bit more advanced is ok (remember my definition of advanced though) or if you have ever had problems with em

if your doing rows and not doing stupid shit then you wont have any need to strengthen the cuff or the post delts more than they will with a good routine

stubob:
do chins, whatver grip you want, as long as your palms face you

buy this bench at least : http://gymratz.co.uk/weight-training-gym-equipment/item122.htm

think about your volume a bit

when doing rows do em properly - bend over a fair bit, keep the lower back arched (upper back can round but thats a thread worth of shit there) and try and retract the scapula at the top then go fairly protracted but not completly at the bottom

[Mike]

doing rotator cuff every so often when your a bit more advanced is ok (remember my definition of advanced though) or if you have ever had problems with em

if your doing rows and not doing stupid shit then you wont have any need to strengthen the cuff or the post delts more than they will with a good routine



Amen.

[DelBoy]

I've just bought a bench using the missus' credit card! Its a Marcy SB650 Flat Bench

http://www.gymworld.co.uk/prodpage.asp?ProdID=219

Looks ok, don't know what it's capacity is though. Good to be able to Bench properly now.

[DelBoy]

Also, should I straight swap Floor Press for Bench Press when my Bench comes? Or is it worth keeping it and replace Press Ups with it and do it 3x3 as assistance for my Triceps?

[help]

do normal bench press

sorry to say but that bench doesnt look to great

should of got that one i recommended

[DelBoy]

Fair enough mate. We'll see when it comes, if it's shit then I'll get the other one. Should I ditch Floor Presses altogether then?

[help]

why do them>?

[DelBoy]

To add to the end of my Wednesday training session.
It's currently:

Floor Press 7 work sets 3-2 reps
Military Press 7 work sets 3-1 reps
Press Ups 3 sets 5 reps

I was thinking of changing it to:

Bench Press 7 sets 3-2 reps
Military Press 7 sets 3-1reps
Floor Press 3 sets 3 reps

Add abit of Tricep work as I prefer them to Press Ups.
Opinion?

[Fred]

what about dumbell bench or cg bench?

[DelBoy]

True, quite enjoy Floor Press though, just wondering if alternatives are actually beneficial?

[Fred]

i feel cg is helping my triceps alot... in turn helpnig my bench... not sure about dbs tho tbh

[help]

close grip would be more beneficial